Here are the questions asked by community members. Read on to see the answers provided by the ThriftyFun community.
My 2 yr old male Pug pees in the house. He does not have certain spots, he just does it anywhere. He has not been neutered. We have a doggy door so he has access to the outside and he goes out a lot and pees outside, but he still does it inside. I love him and don't want to get rid of him, but I cannot keep letting him pee everywhere.
By Sherry B. from Ninety Six, SC
Sounds to me like he has never been trained or he has become untrained. You will need to retrain him. Take him out often to go, and praise him when he does. When he messes inside, correct him and immediately crate him.
My 7 year old Doxie has used puppy pads since a pup, but will not use them in our new home.
By Kathy H
Hi, I am having the same issue and would love to find out if you ever found a solution. I have a 4 yr old shihtzu. We lived in New Jersey since we had her. She grew up using the pee pads majority of the time since she was home a lot while we worked it was out. Though, she also knew how to potty outside whenever we get a chance to let them out.
Recently, I moved with her to California. Since we moved here, she would not potty inside on the pads anymore. To be fair, the first 2 weeks while I waited for my apartment to be set up, we stayed with family and space was tight. Do I took her out to the yard or for a walk to potty.
The first day in out new place, she went twice on the pad, then not anymore. It's been storming out, and still she doesn't go on the pad. We just have to wait until storm isn't as heavy of rain and then I take her out. She does her business instantly and we go back in before the winds takes her away. Since this is only an apt., I don't have the luxury of letting her into a yard either.
She is currently staring at me while standing on the pad. Not u set standing me that she has to potty on it. What do I do?
Hi, I am having the same issue and would love to find out if you ever found a solution. I have a 4 yr old shihtzu. We lived in New Jersey since we had her. She grew up using the pee pads majority of the time since she was home a lot while we worked it was out. Though, she also knew how to potty outside whenever we get a chance to let them out.
Recently, I moved with her to California. Since we moved here, she would not potty inside on the pads anymore. To be fair, the first 2 wks while I waited for my apartment to be set up, we stayed with family and space was tight. Do I took her out to the yard or for a walk to potty.
The first day in out new place, she went twice on the pad, then not anymore. It's been storming out, and still she doesn't go on the pad. We just have to wait until storm isn't as heavy of rain and then I take her out. She does her business instantly and we go back in before the winds takes her away. Since this is only an apt., I don't have the luxury of letting her into a yard either.
She is currently staring at me while standing on the pad. Not u set standing me that she has to potty on it. What do I do??!
I have a 4 year old Pit Bull/Mastiff mix who wakes me up at least 4 to 5 times a night. He is a big dog and I let him out regularly throughout the day. So why so much at night? Help! I need sleep. Am I over feeding and over watering him?
By Amber
I have the same issue with my 1.5 year old pit/lab mix. It's frustrating I've been unemployed for a year so I don't know if it's because there isn't much structure.
It's hard to tell if you are overfeeding him if you don't say how much you are feeding him. Are you measuring his food? How much does he weigh?
The cheaper the food you use, the more he will have to "go" as a general rule. So the better quality food is what you will want to feed him because you can feed less.
Excess peeing is a different story, since it can indicate kidney problems. If the frequent outdoor visits are to pee, take him to the vet right away.
Can I train my 3 year old dog without a clicker?
By Aichan from Caloocan, Phillipines
My 7 year old poodle & chihuahua was 4 years old when she was house trained. We never use a clicker to train our dogs. We made sure that if she went potty in the house we let her know what she did wrong BUT you shouldn't punish your dog if they did it 30 mins ago.
HI, I foster adult dogs so I get to house train a few of them. All I do is in the first few days they come, I take them outside say every hour. If they have a drink I wait 20 mins and go outside. If they eat, wait half hour and go outside. When they do pee or poop outside I make a HUGE fuss of them. I tell them they are awesome, I might even give them a small treat (right at the second they are finishing that pee) if they have been a bit harder to train. I never reprimand them inside unless I actually catch them doing it.
A few tips, use "Urineoff" or similar to get rid of any pee pheremones inside as some will want to use that spot once its marked. Also, get a vet check and ensure there is nothing wrong with the bladder. In older dogs, spondylosis (mild arthritis) in the spine which is completely normal, can affect the muscles around the pelvic area, so even though they dont want to pee inside, they cant help it. Good luck!
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely adore my two dogs. Hendrix (who this post is about) is my little soulmate. We are really close, I give him lots of attention and love, but I don't spoil him. I ignore him when he's being naughty and he responds well. He's gotten a lot better over the past year, but Ive reached a wall in house-training him. I hope you guys can help!
Here's the story:
I've had my miniature Dachshund Hendrix since he was around 6 months old. He's now 3 years old.
When we first got him he was really nervous, and would run in insane circles (sometimes while peeing if we weren't home) all the time. We lived in a house with a garden when we got him, and he was outside with our other dog (fully house trained) when we were at work. Eventually we got a doggie door so they could go in and out. He got used to it and didn't really have accidents inside, although he was a pretty bad submissive pee-er for quite a while.
We moved to an apartment with a small garden, and started to walk them to go pee and poop as often as possible, but he refused for the better part of a year. It was hugely frustrating because we'd spend ages outside, then he'd go as soon as we got inside (in the garden). Once our other dog escaped from the garden (we got her back right away though thankfully!) and we decided to keep them inside when we weren't home. He started doing his business on the rug/floor - never waiting for us to get home even though we'd let him out in the morning and as soon as we got home and again in the evening.
Eventually he started peeing and pooping on walks, which was great, but he still did it at home when we weren't there, and sometimes if we didn't let him out fast enough.
We just moved again - this time to an apartment without a garden. Our schedule has changed so we leave around 7:15am and get back home around 3:30 or 4pm most days. We feed and walk the dogs in the morning, then go for walks as soon as we get home. We feed them their second meal in the evening and go for one or two more walks before bed.
Evey day when we get home in the afternoon he has peed a bunch of times (sometimes up to 6-8 times - I count the puddles) and pooped at least once or twice, but quite a lot each time. We leave wee pads and he does his business there (although of course he moves the pads around and it's still a bit of a mess), but he sometimes poops once there then again in the hall. He doesn't pee anywhere else though, which is good.
I know he's made a lot of progress, but it's driving me nuts because we have to clean pee and poop every single day. It's the same thing if we go out for an hour or two. If no one is home, he just has to pee and poop. I know for a fact that he can hold it because when I'm at home all day he can hold it from morning til afternoon - even later than the time we usually take him (sometimes he holds it from around 8am til 6 or 7pm). He also lets me know when he has to go out. The only issue is him doing it inside when we're not home. He and my other dog have a limited space, not the whole house, they have a Kong each, chews, their beds, and toys - and each other - so I don't know if he's just bored or has separation anxiety, but I really need to sort this problem out.
We have people house/dog sit for us when we go on vacation. The same couple has done it now twice - they love the dogs and the dogs love them, but the accidents drive everyone a bit nuts. We're traveling again in December so I'd love to have him properly house-trained by then if possible so we don't wear out our lovely friends. It's hard to find people who get on with the dogs so well and that we can trust when we're out of town!
Any help/advice would be great.
Additional info:
I haven't crate trained him. I know everyone says it's the best thing to do, but I don't think it'll work on him. If there aren't any pads put out for him he pees in his bed. I'm not completely against the idea, but probably as a last resort. I know he will bark all day, and crates are pretty hard to find for a decent price where I live :/
We've tried restricting their space, or giving them extra space - it doesn't make a difference.
When he poops/pees at home he does a lot more than when we walk him. He'll poop in the morning then twice when we're not home and again in the evening a bit. When we are home all day he only poops twice a day, maybe 3 times, but all in all the quantity is less. I don't get it. He also seems to pee wayyy more when we're not home compared to when we are home all day and take him out.
By ZS
I have almost the exact issues with my dog and if you've had any progress - please share it with me!! I'm at a loss..
My dog lived in a kennel for two years with no housetraining and can easily run in circles in her own deposits every day. She seems to be fine relieving herself outside on our walks when we're together but when I leave her alone in the home, 100% of the time, she will soil her area. I'm not seeing any progress at 3 months...
My dog lived in a kennel for two years with no housetraining and can easily run in circles in her own deposits every day. She seems to be fine relieving herself outside on our walks when we're together and i praise her outside when she does her business but when I leave her alone in the home, 100% of the time, she will soil her area. I'm not seeing any progress at 3 months... It sounds like we have similar issues. If you've had any success with your dog - pleeeaaasee share it with me :) I'm at a loss..
I just adopted a 2 year old Min Pin from the animal shelter. They say that she is house broken, but she wants to use the bathroom in our house. How do we stop that?
By Tara
Everytime she has an accident, take her outside. Gather up the poop and bring it with you, put it on the ground. Say potty, or poop or whatever. If it's pee you can use a soaked paper towel to demonstrate the same thing. They need to associate the scent with outside. We got a dog who wasn't housebroken. That's what we did.
Try using pee pads for dogs. Place them in a spot near a door, preferably an outside door if possible. That might help and praise him/her when they use it.
How do I house train a 2 year old Brittany Spaniel that hunts and is crate trained? He is a good hunter and well disciplined otherwise.
By skip
Since he's an older dog I would try crate training him first. Dogs rarely want to "go" where they sleep. If that doesn't work you can buy puppy training pads or Petsmart also has these neat "grass patches" that dogs are attracted to and they will do their business on those patches and you just throw them out.
Hope this helps and Good Luck.
I would train him the same. Watch him like a hawk and figure out his sign that shows you he needs to go. Let him out frequently until you and he figure it out.
My husband and I have noticed that every day his dog has made a very large accident on the kitchen area rug. The dog is a Lhasa and has been doing this every day at different times. He said that Jumba (the dog) has been doing this for months now even before we were together. We just got married and the kids and I moved in over a month ago and he has a lot of attention, but still does it. He doesn't learn from his accident and only cowers if you try to punish him for it. We are frustrated and he is stinking up the house. What do we do? The vet says he is fine physically.
By javamom77 from Yorkton, Sk, Canada
Just a semi educated guess, but regardless of how well you have tried to clean such, I suspect your dog can still detect the smell of his own urine and recognizes that as an invitation to "re-cover." IMHO it is not productive to "punish" the dog for doing so as this is usually only an instinctive reaction to "re-mark" his own territory and not necessarily a statement of defiance against his people, especially since the dog has been allowed to so for some time and his vet has declared him physically fit.
My guess is that your husband was a bit more lenient with "accidents" than you are currently willing to be and the pooch just continued a bad habit. (No offense meant to anyone - take comfort in that expression that "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus" - we all get comfortable with seemingly routine, innocuous, behavior in some way shape or form!)
Again, I think it is non productive (and possibly cruel, depending on method of discipline) to "punish" the dog as he probably has no clue as to why he is now being punished more harshly than before you and your children moved in. Adapting to change is hard for all of us (humans, canines and felines alike) as new residents enter "the home base". All deserve a break and positive suggestions for readjustment.
I suggest you remove the area rug completely, thoroughly wash and disinfect the surface(s) beneath the area, and start over with a clean slate as the whole family works to help the dog learn the new rules of "no potty in the house for healthy, full grown dogs!" :-)
Unless the area rug is a family heirloom (in that case, have it professionally cleaned and use as a wall hanging) it's a small price to pay for the cohesiveness of a newly blended skin/fur family.
Sincerely wishing the best for all of you!
You have to have patience with a dog when his life gets changed so drastically! You and your kids moving in was a big change for the little dog! You need to try to understand and help the little dog adjust to the changes, in a positive way. I suggest you do some research on training dogs before you go any further! You don't punish a dog for something after the fact because he doesn't realize what he is in trouble for. It absolutely breaks my heart to think of this little guy cowering in a corner, with no clue why this stranger wants to punish him.
I would hate to hear how you "punish" the dog. It sounds like you're simply either not a dog person or just don't like this little dog. The dog was there first and deserves you to be nice to him! He wouldn't be cowering in a corner if he was being treated as he should! If you plan on living with the dog I also suggest you do research on positive training, when "punishing" a dog isn't part of the training!! Maybe try to find out exactly whats causing the problem and go from there. But have a heart and try to have some understanding for the poor little dog and STOP punishing him!! Take up the rug if it that important to you. I'll be praying for the little dog.
How can I housebreak a 2 year old beagle? I tried a crate but he soils in there.
Katie from Alexandria, VA
How long are you leaving the dog in the kennel? Sounds like he/she is being left in the kennel too long. If it's longer than 3-4 hrs., it's too long.
My Min Pin, Rocky, is 2 1/2 years old. I got him when he was one, and the lady that had him first never trained him. No matter how often or for how long we walk him, he still insists on doing his business in the house, usually on a rug. I'm at my wits end! Also, he insists on barking at everything and everyone. Even if it's me coming in the door. Any help would be SO greatly appreciated!
Corrin from Chicago, IL
I have an 8 month old chihuahua/rat terrier mix. We got her when she was 4 months old and decided to go with crate training. It seemed to have worked at first, but then she gets to excited when it's time to go out and piddles on the floor. Then we decided, no excitement just open the door, and take her out. That seemed to work. Then when she would have accidents in the house, we would rub her face on it or give her smacks on her bottom and say NO! For the most part she has gotten it pretty well. But now, she is starting to go in her crate.
She is walked first thing in the morning. Fed, then walked again. Is in her cage, gets play time, then off to the dog walker she goes. When she comes home, she has already gone potty, then we feed her, let her play a bit, then take her out about 45 min later. then back in the house, play time, and she usually naps with our other dog which is totally potty trained. before bed (usually 10pm) she is walked again and the put in the crate, and the cycle starts all over again. when we arent going to be home for a few she is always taken out right before and then put in the crate and as soon as we come home take her back out again.
We just can't seem to put our finger on it as to when she is in fact peeing in her cage. Any suggestion in how to get her to be 100% outside potty trained like the our other dog? We are moving to a new place shortly and are afraid that she will be going everywhere and there are hardwood floors! PLEASE HELP!
I rescued a 2 year old Pitty mix who has had only a shelter life. Of course he has issues; not leash trained, we're using a Gentle Leader on him and he's doing great. He had food aggression issues for 1 day! He has learned sit, stay, down, wait, (as in his food in bowl right in front of him,) then I say get it. I can walk away and my boy will sit there til I give that command.
However, he will not stop peeing all over my house. It's not a medical issue; he's been checked. Its not that I don't take my boys outside. I have 5 dogs (all potty trained) and they are outside whenever they want. I am home with them all day and my animals are what I do! I walk him with each of his brothers every morning so that he can get accustomed to walking better with another dog. Their daddy walks them at night.
I am honestly at the end of my rope. I don't know what else I can do. I know how to potty train dogs, or so I thought. I am writing this because he is gone beyond just territorial marking or anything like that. He walked in the house today, came into the room where I was, lifted his leg and peed all over my foot. We've had him since Feb 15th. I refuse to give up on this little guy. What am I missing? Please help!
How do I house train an older dog? I have a 3 year old Shih Tzu and she pes and poops on the floor. I take her for 3 walks a day, but I also have to keep her on a leash. I want her to learn how to go loose without leaving the lawn. She has gotten loose on me a few times.
Hope you guys can help out!
We have a female dog that has access to go out at any time, but she still goes potty in the house. She refuses to go poop in front of us.
Our male is completely trained. But our female still goes inside. How do we stop her from going in the house.My year old neutered male Shih Tzu comes to me after he pees and shows me where he actually went. He gets walks daily, has regular and multiple outside times to relieve himself that are for this purpose only, seperate from playtime outdoors. It is as though he has it "backwards", I am not sure how to reverse this behavior.
He will oftentimes go to the door or come look at me with that signal look, but daily there are the "other" times. He has access to me all day, in a studio apartment. There have been no changes in lifestyle to attribute this to. These indoor accidents are lessening, 2 a day now, no more at night. I have tried a tastier reward upon re-entering the house each time after a successful potty, to no avail.
Any ideas for house training my 2 year old pup?
I have a 8 year old Boxer. He's only been in my home for 2 years and I don't think that he was ever potty trained. He does great when I'm home, but I can leave him in the back yard for an hour, let him in and leave for 10 minutes and come home he will have peed and pooped all over the house.
I tried using a crate and he took the door and the side panel clean off. Does anyone know what I can do to fix this?
We have had our terrier for 4 years. He was a rescue dog and we got him from the person who rescued him so he has been passed around a bit. After 4 years he should feel settled, yet he constantly poos and pees in the house. He has been to the vet and is fit. He poos on any scrap of carpet even though the door is open for him to go out. He poos on the carpet in front of the door, 2 more steps and he would be in the garden.
He gets let out or taken out several times a day, so there's no need for him to do it. If we put him in the garden he constantly barks to come in. We suppose he wants to be with us, but in the last couple of months he keeps running away and has been picked up by the pound. There's always someone indoors as we are retired and he has plenty of attention; so what can we do? I know he is jealous of the grandchildren, but he is always the same.
We adopted our dog at 1 yr. as a rescue. She was only partially house-trained. She is fully potty trained now, asks to go outside, and never has accidents while we are home. She is also fully crate-trained and has never had an accident in her crate.
I am moving with my 15 year old dog, how do I potty train her?
Take your dog outdoors to the same area every two hours or so; however long she can hold it. Do this at the same time each day. Take water bowl away just after last potty break for the night or before you retire. Keep talking to the dog using simple words of potty time and eventually she'll get the idea why she's going out. Stay there with her and see that she does go before bringing her indoors.
Six month ago we adopted an 8 year old border terrier called Brock. We already have an 11 year old Border Terrier called Tarka and two cats. Brock settled in very well except for the fact he will urinate everywhere in the house. He does this up my bin, kitchen cupboards, and my couch. This morning my daughter put her school bag on the floor to put her coat in and he urinated all over it.
I always have the back door open to allow both dogs access to the garden when needed. Brock will walk in from the garden and urinate in the house. I'm at my wits end now. We love Brock, but can't take the smell that it's now causing. Brock has been vet checked and he is a healthy dog. Can anyone please help?
My dog is 4 years old and has always used a newspaper lined litter inside the house. Now that we have a garden, we tried to retrain her to go outside. We even put the newspaper outside.
She practically stopped eating and almost refuses to go outside when invited. Her behavior, otherwise, is normal. Any advice please.Your dog thinks you have lost your marbles. You spent all that time teaching her where you want her to go and now you've changed your mind.
The good news is that your dog is well trained. You're more fortunate than you think. The shelters are full of untrained dogs.
I suggest you put the newspaper in the least offensive place in the house and be thankful your dog will use it. It's a lot easier than trying to teach an adult dog new tricks.
I adopted a dog about 3.5 weeks ago. They said he's only a year, but other body features are showing he may be much older, maybe closer to 5. I only know that he came in as a stray when I rescued him. For the first week to two weeks of having him, he did great! No accidents in the house. 
Then I brought a friend over a few nights ago, they stayed the night as well. And the next day I started smelling something peeish. I thought it was my hamsters, but it turns out he peed in one area of my room. And he must have kept going there because I didn't realize it until it was too late. I have tan carpet that you can't tell if he peed or not, have to go by smell. I never did anything, told him no, because it was too late to do so.
Well the other morning I apparently wasn't fast enough to take him out (he is the first thing I take care of in the morning as I know how I get!), and he peed in the corner. I corrected that one because I saw. But now I'm afraid he is continuously going at night and it's in the back of my mind to the point I don't sleep well anymore. Any suggestions? He is fine when I am around him.
I'm trying to train my 1.5 year old Maltese, Echo, to not pee on the floor. Idk what is going on. I rescued her and I think she may have been abused. If she is really excited she'll pee on the floor. If you put out your hand too quickly or try to put the leash on, she pees right there.
Sometimes a lot, sometimes not. My husband is becoming quickly annoyed and I don't want to have to get rid of her as I'm attached. Please help!This is a common problem and is called submission urination. It usually happens with puppies and they usually grow out of it. It may help for you (and your husband)to be very calm when dealing with your dog. The less stress she feels the less she will dribble. It may just be part of adjusting to a new home. Trainers and your Vet may have other options for you to try. Good luck.
I have the most lovable Bulldog. I rescued him when he was 7 years old, I've had him for just over a year. I also have a hound mix; I've had her since she was 12 weeks old and she's now 5. The problem is my Bulldog will mark up my living room. He pees on the couch, on the entertainment center, and on the book shelf. It is like a constant circle in the living room. I'm so frustrated and not sure what to do. He will be great for a few days, then "bam", he marks it up again!
By Evelyn
I have heard that de-sexing helps - but not sure. Speak to the vet.
We have had our Central Asian Shepherd, Ruby, since she was 8 weeks old. She is a great dog, except she will pee and poop in my house. As soon as we got her, we began housebreaking her and she was good for a few months and then "boom" she just won't go to the bathroom outside anymore.
Occasionally I can get her to pee outside, but she will not poop. If I crate her, she has no problem pooping and peeing in it and the laying in it! It's a mess. I've tried long walks, and I've tried using my yard for her to do her business, but neither works. I've tried treats when she goes outside, but it doesn't work. I don't know what to do anymore. Nothing changed that would upset her, she gets attention and love. I have another dog she loves and gets along with, she just won't go potty outside. And she doesn't even try hiding it when she goes in the house. She will just go whenever or wherever. Help please!
By Jjon
How much do you crate her? Also how long in the day is she by herself? There has to be a reason on why it started to work and now it isn't working. I know recently we went to Petco and they had a sign for a free seminar on potty training which is this month, not sure if you have a Petco where you live and they are offering the same.
You can also look online to see if there are any products similar to preventing cats from peeing etc in areas of the home they might have for dogs. If you started crating her more due to not wanting her to pee or poop around the house then she will be stressed and showing her stress will be once she out doing it in the house. You have to keep training and laying wee wee pads out just in case. If she goes outside right after give a treat, good girl. If you put the pads in the house and she does it on the pad then reward her again so she knows if she has to go it is on the pad only. The start bringing the used pads outside for the scent, keep doing this until she knows outside only, it takes time, patience and caring for this.
My dog is 5 years old. She is actually an outside dog because my sister is allergic. However, recently because of my management office I have to put her inside the house. My dog has no experience in pooping and peeing on a pee pad. I tried putting a bit of pee to attract her, but its not working. I put her in a small room with her pee pad and bed, but she refuses to go and only goes in the house when I let her to play with. How do I get her to poo and pee on the pee pad?
By Kim
Pee pads are a terrible idea. The better solution is to potty train the dog, and take her outside to relieve herself. Keep her in a confined area, and take her out every 45 min to 1 hour. As she becomes more reliable, you can extend the time between outings. This is healthier for her and you.
I adopted a 2 year old female Chihuahua. I had her fixed. She would rather potty in the house than outside. I take her out and give her treats when she goes, but she would rather go on my carpet. She doesn't like to be cold. I can take her out and walk her around the yard, bring her back inside and she will go potty then. I am very frustrated and am considering taking her to the humane society. I can't stand the thought of potty pads. Is there anything I can do to break her from going on my carpet?
By Sandi M. from Klamath Falls, OR
A friend of mine has a small dog and the same problem. She got a lid from an "under the bed storage container", which is large and shallow, and got the kitty litter made from newspaper pellets. Her little dog uses this.
We recently adopted a very sweet, loving 2 year old dog. When we are home, she uses her doggie door to go potty. However, on occasion she is going inside our home when we have to leave. My husband is getting very upset. Please help!
By Polly from San Diego, CA
It isn't easy training a adult dog but there are ways that worked for me. He was crated when we adopted him at 5 years old and I left the door open to the crate when we went out. I put a adult size pee pad in the kitchen and trained him to use that in the house when it was too cold outside or we couldn't take him with us, he was really spoiled but he should spoil your house if and when he uses it make a big deal and praise him like crazy (takes patience but he will catch on:)
I have lived with my boyfriend in his condo for about a year now. He's had his dog since puppy-hood. He got the dog to use puppy pads, but stopped there. I think he felt guilty because he works long hours, I don't know. But now I'm there and walk him frequently. No change. He'll pee on it 10 minutes after we're back inside or right in front of you, no problem. We have no yard so I can't move the pad outside. I'm clueless about where to start and tired of looking at dog pee.
By Lia
Many dogs use the pee pads all their lives. Its better than using the carpet! And if you have no yard, I really don't see the problem.
I have a 3 year old Staffy who keeps wetting in my house. I can't get her to stop.
By Kelly
There are many questions that would need to be answered before a solution to try could be provided. How long have you had this furbaby, has she always exhibited that behavior, have there been any changes in the home environment that preceeded the pottying behavior?
The short answer without knowing the above information would be to take her out to potty at regular intervals during the day and before you go to bed at night. Praise her when she/he goes potty outside and hand her a treat so she knows that she has exhibited behavior that pleases you. Repetition is the key to enforcing good behavior. They truly want to please you but they have to understand what it is that you are asking them to do. If you ignore requests to go out and potty they will eventually think it does not matter.
